A lot of people are talking about how women in the World State are oppressed and objectified by the men. But I personally don't see it. One of the essay questions for Brave New World was, what is the role of women in the world state? I thought about this a lot but concluded that women are treated equally. I've read a lot of comments and posts about how women are treated as sex toys and their main purpose is for sex and other pleasures. But how? The saying is "everyone belongs to everyone else." Not, all the women belong to all the men. I think the men were used for sex as much as the women were. The fact that the book was mainly in the point of view of men, may have caused some confusion. But remember that one scene when Fanny was trying to convince Lenina to go out with a guy other than Henry Foster. I think that scene was proof enough that men and women are treated equally. At least sex/dating-wise. But yeah, I mostly saw equality between men and women as long as they were in the same caste. Maybe I'm missing something. If I am, feel free to comment and point out allllllll my mistakes :)
Hi Sharissa! I totally agree with you! I can't stand it when some cultures in our society see women as property to have their kids for them. It's wrong, and although it's really upsetting that women in the World State can't have kids, they seemed to be treated more equally because of it. The women in Brave New World seemed to objectify the men just as much as the men did the women. It seemed pretty mutual to me, and I felt that women were pretty equal to men in the novel.
ReplyDeleteThis will sound very confusing, but hang with me. It's not that women can't have kids. They could, if they weren't sterilized to begin with. The fact that most were sterilized before they were even born meant that women had no control over their bodies and lives. The World State stripped from them a very important trait of their sex. Sure, women are disgusted at the thought of being a mother. However, they wouldn't be thinking that if they weren't sterilized and instilled with those thoughts by the World State.
DeleteOn the topic of equality, I believe that in some social aspects they are equal to men. For example, they can sleep around with random people as much as they'd like and not be shamed for it. However, as I told Kaila, all of the high positions in businesses mentioned in the World State were held by men. I don't believe that both sexes are equal. However, they are pretty close.
"However, they wouldn't be thinking that if they weren't sterilized and instilled with those thoughts by the World State."
DeleteBut they were, which causes them to not have kids and be treated with more respect within their society than some women are in ours. The fact that these women didn't have kids just helped them overcome another big boundary between men and women, and while I wouldn't give up having kids for more equality, in this society, that's the way things work and that causes them to be more respected by society. We can't think in what ifs about this book. What if they weren't sterilized? What if these thoughts weren't ingrained in them since birth? It doesn't really matter because they were, and that's just another thing that makes this society unique. If you take that away, you're changing their society, which changes the novel, and the entire analysis of the novel. We can only judge what's given to us, not what we make up because Huxley is the author, not us.
So we can't make our own judgments on things that aren't specifically written in the book because we aren't the authors? I was only analyzing and drawing ideas. There is nothing wrong with that.
DeleteHowever, I will admit that you have converted me to your side. Although not being allowed to have babies is a very serious violation of their rights, it has been able to put women on an equal level with men.
Lol, no we can make judgements on things that are implied in the book or aren't specifically written, but there's a difference between a rational assumption based on several pieces of evidence from the novel, and a not so rational assumption based off of one piece of evidence that isn't even described very well. And I didn't mean to "convert" you, (thank you though), I'm just trying to help you see why our "side" sees the role of women as equal.
DeleteWhat piece of evidence isn't described very well?
DeleteOther than the lab where the main characters work and the Controller, we don't really know who leads the other businesses we read about. We meet some of the workers there, but we never really hear about the leaders...
DeleteMy argument with you focuses on the violation of women's rights. For example, the right to give birth. I am not arguing on the equality of both sexes. I already said that I agree with you that they are equal.
DeleteAwesome! That makes life easier. I don't see it as a violation of those women's rights because they don't know any better and they don't want to know any better. That's the way their society is run and they're happy with that. The main point of their society is to be happy, and they've obviously achieved that without having children. If they actually wanted children and the government was suppressing them and ignoring them, then that would be violating their rights, but even if these women weren't sterilized, they wouldn't want to have kids. Linda could have kids, and when she did, she switched from hating to loving her child constantly, and she constantly believed John ruined her life. This life is all they've ever known, and they don't want to know anything else. When Lenina went to the Reservation, she needed soma to be able to make it through the trip because she couldn't stand the life they were living. Saying that these women don't want to have children because they've been brainwashed may be true, but it's just another what if. They have been brainwashed, they don't want to have children, and they're happy that way.
Delete"I don't see it as a violation of those women's rights because they don't know any better and they don't want to know any better".
DeleteI have an apple in my hand. However, I hand you an orange and tell you that it is an apple. All your life you truly believe that an orange is an apple. Just because that's all you know and have been taught doesn't make it right. Just because these women don't know that their rights are being violated doesn't mean that they aren't being violated.
"And they don't want to know any better."
DeleteYou missed the second part of the sentence. I think I'd want to know what I'm putting into my body, but if you could talk to these women and give them your point of view, they'd look at you like you were crazy. They. Don't. Want. Kids. The idea disgusts them. They don't want to know what it's like to have kids because they've heard of how it used to be, which to them must seem like the Dark Ages because they think it's completely scandalous and horrifying. Lenina saw women who had the choice to have kids, and it didn't make her start to question her right to children. They don't want to know what it's like. I feel like you're still thinking like this is our society. To accurately judge this, you need to put yourself in these women's shoes. You need to think as Lenina, Fanny, or Linda would have. You need to judge these women's rights based off of their society, not ours. In our society, that's an obvious violation of women's rights. In their's, it;s the government doing women a favor.
Of course I am comparing our society to theirs. I am looking at this from the perspective of our society and our morality. However, you are right, in their society it is a blessing.
DeleteWell that explains the difference between our points of view. I'm looking at this from the World State's point of view. When we look at it from our society's point of view, then yes, it's horrible and disgusting, along with 90% of all the other things their society does. But I've been looking at this as a woman would in Brave New World.
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ReplyDeleteI agree as well! Women were pretty equal to men. Both men and women had to work, and both had their jobs assigned by the World State. In America, the fact that women don't have equal opportunities in the work force compared to men is one of the biggest gender inequality issues currently. As far as I know, the World State does have employment equality. That's more than America can say.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say that women had the same opportunities in the work force as men. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all, if not most, of the highest positions in businesses and institutions mentioned in the World State were held by men.
DeletePatty, we don't know really know for sure whether the highest positions were held by men in the World State because out of the ten Controllers (the highest position they mentioned in that society), we only met one and he happened to be a man. Also, the fact that there were both men and women locker rooms in the lab where the main characters worked, and they were both described as having a lot of people in them, shows that within the top castes, both men and women were hired in top institutions. We met very few people within these institutions, so to say that most of the highest positions in the majority of the businesses and institutions in the World State is a very big assumption, seeing as we only got to read about two or three of these places, and only one or two of them actually described who the leaders were.
DeleteThat's why I said "mentioned".
DeleteWhich was only like two or three businesses/ institutions, so we can't judge the rest of society off of them/
DeleteYou're right. It was kind of a long stretch.
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